Re: Religion.

by guilded sleuth on Tue 18 Nov 2008, 3:12 pm

This is how i see it.

God wants every single person on the planet to go to heaven with him, more than anyone can imagine.
He does everything He can do to ensure this.
He sent his son to die as a sacrifice in our place.
All we need to do now is ask God for His forgiveness and accept His forgiveness freely.

God doesn't damn people to hell.
He weeps over every lost soul.
However, if someone refuses to believe in God, He doesn't force them to change His mind. God is gentlemanly (unlike many of us Christians whatnow? O_O

).

Also, like prevoiusly mentioned, I believe in spiritual stuff.
If say, there is a group of people who haven't ever heard of Jesus, God can appear to them in dreams etc.
I have heard of these sorts of things happening around the world in places such as China.

Another thing, is that contrary to popular belief, God loves everyone equally despite their sins.
God is love, and we are His children. No sin can separate us from His love.

by Heartswell. on Tue 18 Nov 2008, 7:07 pm

Muslims don't believe that God has a son. We believe in Jesus sure, but only as a prophet since God is perfect, therefore he doesn't have any of his beings' traits such as reproduction. He created everything knowing where it'll end [a mixture of freewill and pre-destination].

I don't think God would appear in anyone's dreams. What I know is that everyone's responsible for their own fate and finding the right religion.

When it comes to heaven, according to our teachings [or what my parents told me at least >_>] is that if you're a Muslim you'll definitely go to heaven even if you're a sinner. Just spend some time in hell to componsate for your sins.
But it depends, cause there's a grey area. The people whose virtues are even with their sins [it's like a scale where both sins and virtues are weighed], you can beg for virtues from the residents of heaven, or they can give you thier sins if you've done something to them in your past life [like stole from them, hurt them, killed them etc. etc.].

Ironically, I'm not that fan of religion anymore LOL@CHUUU

I just know this stuff by heart. whatnow? O_O

I could go on and on explaining.
I just like how it's like a story you have pleased him

by kafka. on Tue 18 Nov 2008, 10:08 pm

I love Fatma and her extensive knowledge on the Islam. i r pleased.

Everything I know about it comes either from Arabian Nights or Orham Pamuk's books. whatnow? O_O

I'm trying to get my hands on a copy of the Quran from the Islamic League -thus an authorized holy copy, not some random one T_T- but eh, I have a class mate who's a librarian at our religious library but he gave me an odd look and told me they don't keep "profane" books there. @_@

Getting back to the point, there are pretty "graphic" illustration of the Afterlife/Last Judgment in Christianity too, at least in the Orthodox and Catholic denominations. Orthodox monasteries have really creepy paintings of the Last Judgment [like the Voronet one] and Catholics have Divina Commedia [which is really really really scary] together with most Medieval art.
^_^

guilded sleuth wrote:God doesn't damn people to hell.
He weeps over every lost soul.
However, if someone refuses to believe in God, He doesn't force them to change His mind. God is gentlemanly (unlike many of us Christians ).

Also, like prevoiusly mentioned, I believe in spiritual stuff.
If say, there is a group of people who haven't ever heard of Jesus, God can appear to them in dreams etc.
I have heard of these sorts of things happening around the world in places such as China.

I never said God wasn't love.
I just asked you if it's just to punish someone for breaking a law they don't know of.

Couldn't those people call God not the Lord, but say, Allah?

by lyrical_mess on Wed 19 Nov 2008, 4:33 am

kafka. wrote:Let's look at it from this perspective:
1. God is just, it's one of His attributes, He is absolute justice.
2. There are people who never had the chance to know of Jesus and God, for example Australia aboriginals. Until recent times, they had no contact with the rest of the world thus with Christianity.
3. God punishes those who don't believe in Him by sending them to Hell.
4. Is it just to punish someone for something they have no control over/for breaking a law they knew nothing of?

I do remember that somewhere in the Bible it said that Jesus will even preach in the house of the dead, but I don't remember the context clearly. Maybe you do.

I like to think of this in terms of Narnia. According to Aslan, whoever does evil in Aslan's name is actually serving that vulture-thingy (Tash, was it?). Whoever does good in the name of the vulture-thingy is actually a servant of Aslan.

Its supposed to be a God vs. the Devil thing. I think if you do good, its good enough. If you're gonna be an asshole, well, buy a portable air conditioner cuz guess where you're headed. Or something to that effect.

by lyrical_mess on Wed 19 Nov 2008, 4:36 am

kafka. wrote:

Couldn't those people call God not the Lord, but say, Allah?

I might be wrong (correct me Fatma) but I think Allah means God/the Lord. I mean, just cuz its not English...

Like, I could call God Mr.TeddyBear Blerktwdjstein or something, but y'know...as long as your heart and mind are in the right place. Although if I'm calling him Mr.TeddyBear Blerktwdjstein, my mind might not really be in the right place. *shrugs*

by Heartswell. on Wed 19 Nov 2008, 6:12 am

That's right. It's the standard word for 'God' for Muslims [even Arab non-Muslims at times]. It's just another widely-known term for 'God'.
>_> In Islam, we actually have 99 adjectives that can be used as an alternative for Allah [they're his 99 names] like, 'Al-Alim' meaning 'The All Knowing, The Omniscient'.
You can actually find them here.

by **testosterone boy** on Wed 19 Nov 2008, 10:43 am

kafka. wrote:I love Fatma and her extensive knowledge on the Islam. Everything I know about it comes either from Arabian Nights or Orham Pamuk's books. I'm trying to get my hands on a copy of the Quran from the Islamic League -thus an authorized holy copy, not some random one T_T- but eh, I have a class mate who's a librarian at our religious library but he gave me an odd look and told me they don't keep "profane" books there. @_@

That actually made me feel physically sick.

What the fuck happened to freedom of religion?

I may not be religious, but I nearly converted to islam a while back, when I held more faith in... well, everything.

It's a beautiful religion and I love that for once, people are given a chance. There is no eternal damnation or horror. Allah is forgiving no matter what, not forgiving only if you do exactly what he tells you and apologise constantly if you do. Its fair and it doesnt teach you only about the afterlife; in the five commandments it requires believers to donate %5 of their annual earnings to charity.

The Quran is much more about how to live peacefully and respectfully than how to avoid getting into hell. As far as I've read, its almost like a Bhuddist influenced Bible.

What I do hate is the way some arabic cultures use it for control. This is mainly because it affects the way the outside world sees islam as a whole, when really, extremist groups are nothing on the huge scale of believers out there.

For example, the choice to wear the hijab is just that - a choice. Allah does not want you to be lustful or to lust, so he asks that you cover yourself - out of respect only for yourself. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't know of anywhere in the Quran where it states that women must cover themselves.

The people forced to wear these garments are done so because of their culture, not religion, and the teo are very different things. The taliban, for example, give the impression that all muslims MUST cover themselves. In fact, a lot of western muslims are discouraged from it but choose to anyway, out of respect for themselves and their religion.

Ugh, I must add this - a friend of mine recently referred to a couple of muslim girls at my school as 'Sand niggers'. He's one of those DESTROY ALL TOWELHEADS people.

Needless to say he's not my friend any longer, because I can't stand racism, but he was shocked when I told him how much respect I had for Islam. It surprises me how few people realise that its not an extremist religion.

I also agree that there was definitely a Jesus Christ. I simply don't believe that he was anything ethereal. A prophet? Perhaps. An extremely wise, fair man, definitely. I just don't believe he was the son of god.

I'm not saying he wasn;t. Its just my opinion.

by kafka. on Wed 19 Nov 2008, 2:27 pm

Ryan Ross wrote:That actually made me feel physically sick.

What the fuck happened to freedom of religion?

I may not be religious, but I nearly converted to islam a while back, when I held more faith in... well, everything.

That's just it, don't people have the right not to agree with a certain religion?

I've been friends with this boy [the librarian] for about two years and a half and for the past year until recently, we used to fight all the time. Among others because he's homophobic, he thinks homosexuality is wrong and doesn't support gay marriage. Now this obviously drove me absolutely mad and I tried everything to talk him out of it. Until I realized I was being a huge hypocrite, who am I to decide what opinion is the right one? Who am I to try to enforce my opinions in others?
He doesn't abuse -verbally or physically- anyone, he doesn't go around telling how wrong it is, just when asked he'll give you his honest opinion. The same way you or me would.

Per genere, we're not anti-Islamic more than we are antisemitic.
You need to take into consideration the fact that from around the 12th century until after WWI we've constantly fought against the Ottoman Empire. We've been under direct Turkish domination for about 400 years and we took a lot of culture and civilisation elements from them.

[I also agree with the rest of your post, it was just too long to quote it all.]

by lyrical_mess on Wed 19 Nov 2008, 3:39 pm

Offtopic, but where do you live Kafka? Israel/Palestine-ish area?

by **the way.** on Wed 19 Nov 2008, 7:13 pm

kafka. wrote:
and an interesting question: how much impact did your parents have on your general view on religion?[/font]

They used to be Catholic, then when I was young they converted to Protestantism. I went with it for a while, until my early teens, then when I noticed that some of the teachings of the Bible seem to be wrong-- I veered away. I still believe in God, but many issues like pre-marital sex, alcohol, homosexuality, suicide, abortion, etc. I'm still figuring out my opinion on. It's not God who's flawed, but the Bible, which was written by man. I think so, anyway, yet my parents are hardcore Christians who are against stuff like Harry Potter and partying.

kafka. wrote:

Did you ever get the impression that you had to be different than your parents?
As if, somehow, your parents perfectly represented their religious beliefs in your mind, and when you got in conflict with them you started to disagree with the religious views too. Because I too have pretty different views on religion than my parents -they're both agnostic- and I've started to notice a pattern here.
It could, maybe, be a sort of rebellion against them to choose a different set of religious beliefs than theirs?[/font]

Not really. Many of my friends follow Christianity, like their parents do. It's just that me and a handful others have different opinions to our parents. I didn't stop believing some of the Bible to be rebellious -- I'll party, fool around, etc. etc. but I won't toy with religion like it's just something to spite my parents with.

They don't even know that I'm non-denominational now, or that I think the way I do.

by **the way.** on Wed 19 Nov 2008, 7:24 pm

Heartswell. wrote:That's right. It's the standard word for 'God' for Muslims [even Arab non-Muslims at times]. It's just another widely-known term for 'God'.
>_> In Islam, we actually have 99 adjectives that can be used as an alternative for Allah [they're his 99 names] like, 'Al-Alim' meaning 'The All Knowing, The Omniscient'.
You can actually find them here.

That's amazing.
I do think the Christian God and Allah are very alike.
'Cuz the followers of Ishmael are the Muslims, and the followers of Isaac are the Christians. Yet they were both Abraham's sons.
So it's like, God has many names.

by lyrical_mess on Wed 19 Nov 2008, 9:21 pm

^ *undertakes the role of captain obvious* They ARE the same. I mean, I personally believe that God is God full stop. However, if you want to get technical, God spoke to Moses (I think) on Mt. Sinai and then sent down Jesus and then Mohammed (latest prophet). So yeah. Its all the same being. *payed attention in history like a good girl*

I also came up with an interesting insight. Mikey said he has faith, not in God, but in good things like love and friendship. At the end of the day, isn't that what God is about?

There's this story. A man goes to a barber and they chat, eventually getting to the subject of religion. The customer doesn't believe in God. When the barber asks why not, the man replies that it doesn't seem possible that God can exist when he seems absent in the lives of so many. If God exists, why do people suffer?

The barber takes his customer to the window and shows him a man on the street down below, playing card with a friend. The man has a long beard and long hair. The barber says "If a man grows his hair like that, does that mean barbers don't exist?"

The thing is, if you wanna get your hair cut you have to go to the barber. The barber never comes to you and offers. He's just there. God will never seek you out; its the other way around. God does not force his love on you, just as a barber cannot force his services on the hairy. You have to look for it and doubtless you will find it if you really want to. And that search, I believe, is the point of prayer.

However, if you declare that all you believe in is love, well, that's awesome. Love is a pretty awesome religion.

by guilded sleuth on Wed 19 Nov 2008, 9:57 pm

I don't think it really matters what word you use for "God", as long as it's the same God.
If Your God has all the same characteristics as the Jesus-God, and if the theology fits with what is written in the Bible then it's the same God in my opinion

And my blabber up the top wasn't directed at anyone in particular x]

=]

by kafka. on Wed 19 Nov 2008, 11:15 pm

lyrical_mess wrote:Offtopic, but where do you live Kafka? Israel/Palestine-ish area?

No, not really.
I live in Romania, and although my part of the country -Transylvania- was under Hungarian occupation since the 13th century until 1918, the rest of the country was constantly at war with the Ottoman Empire since the 14th century when Bâyezîd I attacked us and until 1878 when we gained our independence the country was either under direct domination, at direct war with Istanbul or just paying taxes. All our historical ballads, poems, etc. are about fighting off the Ottomans.
Of course, the conflict with Hungarians is more closed to us because there's a big Hungarian minority and the one with the Russians goes on because of the Republic of Moldavia - WWII - the Cold War, but it's still a fact to take into consideration. History is biased and subjective and we create our opinion on the world around us based on it.

lyrical_mess wrote:^ *undertakes the role of captain obvious* They ARE the same. I mean, I personally believe that God is God full stop. However, if you want to get technical, God spoke to Moses (I think) on Mt. Sinai and then sent down Jesus and then Mohammed (latest prophet). So yeah. Its all the same being. *payed attention in history like a good girl*

I also came up with an interesting insight. Mikey said he has faith, not in God, but in good things like love and friendship. At the end of the day, isn't that what God is about?
However, if you declare that all you believe in is love, well, that's awesome. Love is a pretty awesome religion.

God is love.

We talked about the Ecclesiastes in school today. And we ended up talking about Love. And the two rather closed-minded girls who lead the discussion -they are otherwise nice girls, just really closed minded- said that you cannot love God if you don't love thy neighbor.

My question was can you love thy neighbor without loving God?.
They eluded the answer.

by lyrical_mess on Wed 19 Nov 2008, 11:59 pm

I think you can. Some people believe, subconciously or just in a different way. I think even the most cynical and closed people believe in a higher power. It might be science or it might be love. But that higher power gives us hope and something to believe in. That is God. Whether anyone likes it or not.

You can love thy neighbor and that automatically means you love God. You just don't know it. And once again, it may not mean you love God by name. But God is love, so if you love - truly love, like a good human being - than you believe.

No wait...*Confused*

by straight toxic. on Fri 21 Nov 2008, 3:20 pm

"Religion is the opiate of the masses"

by lyrical_mess on Fri 21 Nov 2008, 5:08 pm

Funny thing is, a lot of Communists here are Christian. Like, half the CPI is Christian. o.O much?

by straight toxic. on Sat 29 Nov 2008, 9:32 pm

I thought the aim of Communism was to wipe our religion and have everyone equal?

by lyrical_mess on Tue 02 Dec 2008, 3:15 am

yeah...idk really. But its causing a huuuge issue here with some of the Hindu extremists. I hate the whole thing.

by **testosterone boy** on Fri 05 Dec 2008, 2:07 pm

kafka. wrote:
Ryan Ross wrote:That actually made me feel physically sick.

What the fuck happened to freedom of religion?

I may not be religious, but I nearly converted to islam a while back, when I held more faith in... well, everything.
That's just it, don't people have the right not to agree with a certain religion?

I've been friends with this boy [the librarian] for about two years and a half and for the past year until recently, we used to fight all the time. Among others because he's homophobic, he thinks homosexuality is wrong and doesn't support gay marriage. Now this obviously drove me absolutely mad and I tried everything to talk him out of it. Until I realized I was being a huge hypocrite, who am I to decide what opinion is the right one? Who am I to try to enforce my opinions in others?
He doesn't abuse -verbally or physically- anyone, he doesn't go around telling how wrong it is, just when asked he'll give you his honest opinion. The same way you or me would.

Oh, no, I know what you mean

But what I mean is, it IS a library and what makes the Bible any more worthy than the Quaran? They're both books.